Original article posted by Chellee:

These are the things Rodney wants to know; these are the things I will address:

(The following is directly cut and pasted from a comment by Ravenpaine)
“I have, on this site, in the past four months attacked many things.

Let’s list them: Your religious beliefs, your family unity, your intellect, your writing skills, your major, your relationships, your sanitary falliability, your art, and your sanity.

But only when I question your country do I get so many responses so quickly and written with such determination. What I want to know is why you all care so much? What is it about the soil that you live on and the people who claim to own such things so important to you? Honestly, why is this a topic that you will fight and die for? There are many greater and more noble causes to fight for. What is it about this one?”

I am very much aware of how you have insulted us collectively and individually. In fact, Rodney, I know some people who have entirely stopped reading the things you post.

(I don’t seem to recall insulting anyone. I’ve made demands. I’ve been angry at concepts, and on more than one occasion I have told someone off, but insult? I don’t really do insults to anyone I don’t know. And people have stopped reading my posts? Oh damn, I needed the loving aduration of others to function, what will I do now? It be a shame that people will lose out on what I have to say. I do read everybodies stuff, its part of how it gets placed here, and I have yet to not post something that was submitted, I’m not here to censor anyone. – Ravenpaine.)

I try to respect other people’s opinions. I try to be tactful. I try to give people as many chances as I can. I suppose this was just the straw that broke the camel’s back. I know that personally I have been holding back because I like to feel things out before I jump in. But I think now is a good time to let it fly…

(Ah, the cry of the compassionate and the sympathetic alike. I have given you what chances I can, but now I will no longer care becaue you pushed one too many buttons. I keep thinking that people believe in second chances, but then I reallise that everyone just stops at some point and gets bitter and closed minded. – Ravenpaine)

Attacks on my beliefs are common. I don’t criticize you for your lack of religion or belief in anything, why must you hate me for mine?

(Strange, I don’t recall making a statement that amounted to I don’t believe in anything. I believe in plenty of things. You really should ask me about what my fundamental religous views are, I’ve given them a lot of thought and research. More than I would of had I NO belief in anything. And do I hate you personally? No, sorry. I only get out and hate concepts and groups, individuals are things that I will always love and hold dear. You might know that, but alas you have stopped reading the things I say. -Ravenpaine)

My family unit is none’ya damn business, but if you’d like to make it your business your welcome to meet them and see what a strong family can do for a person.

(I belive you, your family is probably a great anchor for you, the family I have atttacked has mostly been my own. And perhaps if I had a better one I would be a better person, so thanks for rubbing that in my face a little harder. -Ravenpaine)

My intellect can be clearly seen when you meet me, but as you’ve no interest in me as a person and seem to think I am only a sum of my religion, my physical appearance, and my “major”, you’ll never know.

(I don’t recall having said that, and I don’t know who you are, I only know what you have said about yourself around here, and those things have fallen into topics. I don’t recall trying to get to know you either, as such a process would take time and goes poorly over a written set of things like this. And after all, you know enough about me to not want to know me, so I suppose we shall just sit at this impass for forever. – Ravenpaine)

My writing skills… I know they’re not perfect, but they are above mediocre. If you dislike the way I write, that’s fine. I write on this site to get better at it, not because I’m already amazing.

(Once again, I don’t recall citing anyones writing as being poor, grand, mediocre, fantastic, or any other adjective. Mostly I just post what you submit and I occasionaly write about how much I don’t like English Majors, including myself. So, yeah, this seems to be coming from the same place as everything else… – Ravenpaine)

My major is also none’ya damn business. You’re welcome to listen to me sing. You’re welcome to give me an aptitude test and tell me what you think I should major in. I probably won’t act on it, but I will hear you out and respect you’re opinion.

(This one was my fault, I listed that I had attacked peoples majors, but I haven’t I was just being hyperbolic to finish my list. Someone else talked about the majors, and I believe it was a positive statement. Ooops. – Ravenpaine)

I have plainly laid out the crappiness of my relationships, why would I attack you when you told me what you thought?

(I’ve attacked the principles of relationships on occasion, but no one person’s relationship precisely. The only relationship that has been attacked around here, and loosely at that, was you commenting on my would be relationship with Xiao, which I took no offense at but simply corrected your comment with my own comment. – Ravenpaine)

My art… Well, art is so subjective, and I am so far from being good at it. If by MY art you mean music, well, you have no grounds on which to base any claims.

(Number 1, the art discussion was had mostly between myself and Gandhi2. Number 2 if we want to point out who has no basis for claims you might want to check the exact details of this post, {Which is the mean part of what I am doing here, basically calling you on the lack of research you put into the claims that you are making about me. Theoretically these little notes are here to attack you in the same way you are attacking me, which is to make bold statements about a subject you haven’t started to understand, and most likely will not attempt.} and I don’t recall saying anything negative about your music either. -Ravenpaine)

Whatever, insult my sanity. I may have lost it long ago, but you can’t prove that I’m clinically insane.

(No, but I can prove that I am clinically insane and when we get down to it I could take offense at every time someone around here has made a joke or comment about someone elses mental state, but I don’t think that would do anything for anyone. – Ravenpaine)

Why do I care so much about this subject? Well, to be honest, I believe part of my conviction on this subject goes back to something you’ve continuously attacked: my religion. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and it does greatly influence my life style. My religion was restored because we could come to this country. Many religions were founded because this soil on which we live allows us the simple, rare, and profound freedom of worshipping who we please, where we please, and how we please. Granted, there have been many times when, in this country, we have been persecuted for the very reason we love this land so much. But still we stand.

(Oddly all my attacks at your beloved “Church” have been reactions to overzealous people who desperately want me to join. And somehow I have simply listed things I don’t like about the way I am approached with such a topic. For example, that because I don’t believe what you believe I must obviously not believe anything at all. Does that somehow sound familiar? It might. – Ravenpaine)

I hate to break it to you, but this church will not be going away. No matter how much you hate the LDS church, or the people in it, we’re going to be around for a long while still, and there’s lots of us! And the same goes for this country. You may as well buck up and try to work with us [Americans], not blame us for your downfall and the past.

(And again. I did not state that I hate you or the LDS church. I hate religion because it makes people into assholes who don’t pay any attention to the things going on around them and leads to this attitude that anyone who doesn’t immediately fall into the company line must somehow be completely wrong and semi-evil. -Ravenpaine)

I realize that by writing this, I am going to ruffle a few feathers. But this is what I know. It doesn’t mean that I don’t respect other people’s opinions or beliefs. It doesn’t mean we can’t be friends or that we can’t work together to make our communities a better place, because I believe that’s where it has to start. In our homes and communities. Start small, and work you’re way up.

(I concur. That is why my last two posts and five comments have said basically that. -Ravenpaine)

Most of the other reasons this subject is touchy have been exhausted in earlier dicussion.

When you finally get sick enough of this country to do something or leave, let me know, I’m curious.

(Someday I will be happy to leave this shit-hole country for a place where I am properly and admittedly opressed instead of being opressed from the shadows in a way that everyone condones. Then I can be a better writer and feel that I am fighting in a war where i succeed from day to day instead of being called a jerk and an asshole by the very people I am fighting to help. = Ravenpaine)

In the mean time, you can hate me all you want. I refuse to hate you.

(I’m not touching this one. -Ravenpaine)

P.S. I’m not willing to die for a “topic”. Although there are many people and causes for which I would fight, there are few for which I would die, and even fewer for which I would live.

(And this, if anything, is where we will always disagree. I will always fight for and die for and more importanly, if at all possible, live for my beliefs. I cannot fathom how you could live a life where you didn’t give your all for the things you think are important. What sort of flimsy, milk-sop society would that create? Oh, right – The United States of America. – Ravenpaine)

Orginal comments:


Nickname: gandhi2
NO FAIR!!! I want in…..
We should pull these debates back into the public circle. It’s reasonable for Rodney(and anybody else for that matter) to bash on all of us, most of us, or some of us, but it’s too personal for us to bash Rodney specifically. Address the idea, not the messenger.


Nickname: Chellee
A few points from the original author…
Okay, since I can’t insert into this piece anymore, I’m just going to make a few comments.

First of all, Rodney, when did I say that I stopped reading your pieces? Granted, I don’t read all of them, I’m not included in the publishing process, and I don’t have time to read everything. I try to back track when I can. I just said I know some people who have stopped reading what you write…

Second, with this piece, I was answering a direct question from one person. How much sense would it make to direct it to someone else.

Next, I merely addressed these topics from my point of view, as stated. I don’t expect anyone else to cling to my answers and beliefs. I just answered to each topic Rodney mentioned so he would know where I stand. He asked, I answered.
As far as the insults, I have to admit that I am a sensitive person at times. I take things personally that shouldn’t be taken personally. Sorry!

Second chances, well, okay… I still do give people chances. There is only one person who has exhausted his chances with me, and it’s not Rodney. In this situation, it was just points he made before I actually said something. It’s almost like I tried to wait for the right opening.

Okay, the religious thing was phrased wrong. It should have said “belief in anything or lack of religion”. That was me being tired. Sorry, again.

I wasn’t trying to RUB ANYTHING IN!!! Once again, I was just addressing the topics to show where I stand. Same with the writing skills, art, and relationships. Bleck.

I have insulted no one else’s sanity but my own. If that offends anyone, that’s kind of funny.

Um, who’s calling you a jerk and an asshole? Not me. I just want to be informed of what being done. Like I said, I’m curious.

Um, Rodney, you basically just agreed with me on the Post Script and made it sound disagreeable. When I said I wouldn’t die for a “topic”, I meant more that I’m not going to kill my self discussing something when there are people and causes that need help. I suppose I should have inserted “beliefs” there. I had that grouped with causes in my tired head.
I think it’s very clear what I meant by the rest. I fight for many. I have yet to die for any, but I live for a very important few. I try to choose my battles wisely.


Nickname: ravenpaine
Re: A few points from the original author…
Just a quick note to avoid confusion on that beliefs vs “topics” comment. The word “topic” in my original statement was a stand in (or predicate nominitive, if you swing that way) for the concpets we had been debating all day. The country, peoples unwavering affection to the country, that sort of thing. That is what “topic” meant, and therefore when you said you wouldn’t fight for a “topic” I took that to mean anything a “topic” could stand for. Yes, fighting to the death over a verbal argument is somewhay silly (not that it hasn’t happened) but and argument is but a specter of a thing, and the thing will always require sacrifices.

And finally, I wasn’t asking a direct question about anything but the how and why everyone feels like defending their country over all the other things they could be defending. I asked for no direct, let alone point by point, commentary on what anyone’s views were on that other set of things. The sentence I wrote didn’t even begin to say that. The conclusion that was jumped too, that I wanted such commentary, is what gave this piece such an overtly negative tone of personal assault. Had I asked for this sort of thing I would have no problem recieving this sort of thing. But an unsolicted outburst that, like so many things we have discussed lately, goes beyond stating a set of beliefs and principles in the vein of defending ones self to outright attack of the other person in that defense…. Well, that’s just silly again.

I liked landmines, they were a defensive weapon. You stay out of my country and you don’t get blown up. Every other weapon is purely offensive leading to the first and most damaging attack being the most likely choice for defending the homeland. Kill them before they can kill you, that’s defense. So attack their beliefs directly so that they are too confused or insensed to do anything about it.

This did not stay brief, meh…

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